Curse

Drk Dervish · Feb 13, 2012, 11:03 PM // 23:03

First thing like to say hello to all, from an new member to here.

I just got back playing GW from 4+ years absence of the game. So I a new but also vet player to the game. Anyways was VQ and playing new area/quest in HM. I tried lot of team build ie discard, ROJ, etc. Ended up using discord for most of the time. But after vqing Canthan with discord I found it a little to slow for my pace since I like to use onslaught.

So I got the merc pack this weekend and started to have some fun with a mes team. Below is what I came up so far please let me know what you guys think and always open for improvement.

My toon survivor pretty well thank to extra armor bonus and heath gen. with Vow of Piety. And spamming onslaught/attack's insight keep it renew all the time +50% block bonus. With my SY at max title + 2x SYG the team have lot of extra coverage.

Without MM and lot of spirit I can run this team in a very fast pace. But the trade off is from the lack of MM and Spirits facing a very large mob or in a long draw out fight an hero will often get kill (usually the mes/rit). So I replaced 1 Ineptitude with Shared Burden to slow down the spike from foe. Or do you guys think replace one of the e-surge for panic will help.

Gabs88 · Feb 13, 2012, 11:33 PM // 23:33

There's just so many things I dislike about this build.

1. The idea of having 5 mesmers is ridicilous unless you ball the enemies perfectly. Trust me I've tried and tried to make this work, but overall it does not perform that well.
2. If you have no MM you use ST, not ER Prot.
3. MM, SoGM and SoS are tested and proven staple builds for general vanquishing. If you want it fast thats what you get. If you want it safe, you drop the MM for a ST rit and learn to flag it. You don't really want it safe except for like in a couple of zones in the entire game, because it's unnessesary.
4. ER prot sucks.
5. Death Pact signets on both of your healers? What happens if they ress each other xD
6. SoS bar sucks, especially by it self. Drop Painful Bond and Spirit Rift grab ancestors rage and PWK.
7. Esurge mesmer energy management, and mesmer energy management in general. This is one of the big problems about using multiple mesmers, they rely on the same kind of energy management. And it doesn't stack well. Drop Power Drain for Waste Not, Want not. Grab some Drain Enchantment, basically you can see you have a problem here? ;P
8. Panic on say the dom/resto hero over esurge. This basically allows you to drop both ineptitude and shared burden, frees up some slots for other interesting skills.
9. If still going with 5 mes, grab 4 domi and 1 ineptitude. Or 3 domi, 1 shared burden resto and 1 ineptitude.

Thing is you can get almost instant kill AOE spikes with a lot less AOE then this. A good build has a good balance between heals, prots, damage and utility. This one is a one trick pony, hit or miss nuklear weapon.

Drk Dervish · Feb 14, 2012, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Good pts about ST to replace ER Prot I'll try that one. Like I say I know MM/SOS/SoGM is good for general VQing I come from that, I just got bored

with it.

As for death pact i just put a res on the slot copied off a template in another build. Normally I don't even take any res, let the team warp and use a candy cane.

Hmm I use to have ancestor rage but switch Spirit Rift to again access to cracking armor condition see if there any trade off from my melee toon. Thank for the input I'll adjust some skills around and test it out tonight.

Don't get me wrong I do believe the term "If it isn't broken don't fix it", and pvx have proven build but why not have some fun its an game. ^_^.

Lanier · Feb 14, 2012, 01:07 AM // 01:07

ER prot > ST, even if you don't have a mm in the group.

Vernphos · Feb 14, 2012, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

ER prot > ST, even if you don't have a mm in the group.

This

ER prot is simply amazing.

While I can't say that ST will never work, it works TERRIBLY in parties with MM.

SongOf · Feb 14, 2012, 02:27 AM // 02:27

More like ER prot ≠ ST. Their mechanics (and so weaknesses and strengths) are completely different.

For your party I would keep the ER Prot since you're running minimum heals and every little bit helps.

Personally for slots #4 and #5 I would drop Backfire and Empathy, both GOLEs and both Shatter Hexes. Then I would replace them with 2 Spiritual Pains, 2 Hex Eater Signets (aoe hex removal + energy), and either Chaos Storms (try to micro, nice with SB) or Drain Enchantment.

I try to stupid-proof my hero builds as much as possible, GOLE is great when it's chained with expensive spells but they screw it up a lot

Lanier · Feb 14, 2012, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongOf

More like ER prot ≠ ST. Their mechanics (and so weaknesses and strengths) are completely different.

Maybe on a human. When it comes to heroes, one should always choose the build that the AI can handle the best. Don't get me wrong, ST certainly is good on heroes and it is truly great when used by a human, but the hero AI uses the ER prot build more effectively than it uses ST builds. Its kind of the "good vs. great" argument. ST = good on heroes but is restrained from being "great" due to concessions that have to be made as a result of the hero AI.

Gabs88 · Feb 14, 2012, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Thing is though you generally don't need either of them for 99,5 - 99,8% of the game. And yeah, that's a realistic number. And if you use ST from long range (spirit range is pretty huge) it's a way better prot then ER. And perhaps more importaintly, you don't need to have 3 different spirits, the only one that really matters if you have or not is shelter.

SongOf · Feb 14, 2012, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

but the hero AI uses the ER prot build more effectively than it uses ST builds.

How does that make any sense? What does 'more effectively' mean if they have absolutely nothing in common? Actually what made me laugh is that every single Ritualist Enchantment is caster only. Even Ancestors Rage is a Skill. Anyway Apples vs. Oranges, but there are versions of both that cause the AI to be inefficient.

To elaborate on Gabs post, most people drop Union because Shelter and Displacement mitigation potential is much, much higher. It also keeps a spirit charge of ST in reserve as the skill recharges, in case like Shelter pops from an AOE gone bad you'll have an instant replacement.

Elfblade · Feb 14, 2012, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Maybe on a human. When it comes to heroes, one should always choose the build that the AI can handle the best. Don't get me wrong, ST certainly is good on heroes and it is truly great when used by a human, but the hero AI uses the ER prot build more effectively than it uses ST builds. Its kind of the "good vs. great" argument. ST = good on heroes but is restrained from being "great" due to concessions that have to be made as a result of the hero AI.

It all boils down to manipulation of the hero AI, ST boils down to 2 skills that you want up 24/7 shelter and ST, the AI can handle that if you only use 1 spirit (in areas with less AOE you can bring another one) that is all you want from your ST and after that you can just bring utility. I dont think any concessions are made here, as the hero does exactly what i want (24/7 shelter) and uses whatever utility i put there, which makes it ''great'' as it does exactly what it is supposed to do.

The AI executes it great and shelter is up 24/7. The ER hero is only great if you micro him a lot else he will just misplace tons of spells. That is not a problem since he mostly will have enough energy to do it and AGAIN it boils down to how you play ( if you play tank n spank or micro most of the skills) the ER can be the better choice. Both builds are great but ST can be less micro extensive to get the most out of it.

Drk Dervish · Feb 14, 2012, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Thank for all the input guys really help. I didn't have much time last night to mess with the build. But I did swapped some skill out from all your suggestion.

So tried to give each e-surge with at least 1 individual skill to get energy, so far their pretty good, especially with blood ritual help (actually most of the time Ai casted only on the 2 Ill mes).

Spirit Rift - didn't work as good as I hoped, so going to swap it back to Ancestor Rage and bring my own cracked armor (aura slicer) conditioner.

ST or ER-prot - Well i actually don't use them much before. I was playing with discord + mm/Sos/SoGM so ST dont work well with 15+ mm and with all the mm buffer don't really need a ER-Prot. So far ST work pretty good with a 40/40 with some luck shelter can keep up 24/7. Heros do sometime get some big hp spike where an ER-Prot does do a better job handling those. But still need to run more to know which one i prefer.

E-Surge - Hmm I'll still need more time to see how well does 3 e-surge can really do in battle, so far i can say its not drop as much dps as i hope for. I'll try replace the asuran summon to ebon vanguard sin see if i can get the foe to ball a little better.

I'm also thinking changing one of the Wandering Eye out for Accumulated Pain(deep wound) or Calculated Risk. Any idea of how well they work with AI.

Btw Hex Eater Signet does work wonder in the backline thx Songof

. I still kept a shatter Hex because the signet does have a long recharge time. And the energy for e-surge are pretty good already.

Daesu · Feb 14, 2012, 06:14 PM // 18:14

1. Yes replacing one esurge with panic should help better. If you ball the enemies correctly you should not need a snare, so I would replace the shared burden mesmer but that may depend on playing style.
2. Energy is too intensive. Especially for the Me/Rt.
3. Hex eater signet is counter productive if you need to spread out your heroes in areas with powerful AoE since your heroes would not be in adjacent range anymore and heroes do run around quite abit during battle. But if you still want to bring it, make sure that hero is in slot 4 onwards so you can flag them together with the big flag.
4. I don't like Signet of Creation for ST defensive rits even though I have seen this in many builds. SoC only works on spirits that the ST rit HERSELF controls, not any spirits in the area. The usual time that she needs energy is when she needs to create a spirit that has been killed so she would cast SoC on fewer than 3 spirits (i.e. 0e or 4e most of the time when the situation is bad, 8e if you are lucky) which is counter productive.

But it is one of those situations where you are faced with, if you dont bring SoC, then what can you bring?

I guess for vanquishing this build should be fine (as with most semi-decent 7H builds). If you want to polish this further, then you should bring it to HM elite areas and test it there.

Drk Dervish · Feb 14, 2012, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Yes your correct Me/Rt is the one that need blood ritual most of the time. I might change the rit resto back to one of e-surge and equip that hero with only signet.

For the SoC before this I tried with Binding Chains but Ai NEVER cast it

.

As for HM elite area as much as i hope, but this team most probably wouldn't last. Each elite area pretty much need a custom trailer team to run it smoothly.

Balling is definitely an issue but i was hoping with 3 copy of e-surge AI pick and spike each little individual group. Which I don't think their doing that at least from what I see.

Elfblade · Feb 14, 2012, 07:37 PM // 19:37

On you ST you dont need Union (shelter is all you need to prevent those health spikes) i would say shelter and displacement in easier/less aoe areas and only shelter in hard areas or areas with lots of AoE. this way shelter is up 24/7 and prevents more then enough over the whole team

Lanier · Feb 14, 2012, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elfblade

It all boils down to manipulation of the hero AI, ST boils down to 2 skills that you want up 24/7 shelter and ST, the AI can handle that if you only use 1 spirit (in areas with less AOE you can bring another one) that is all you want from your ST and after that you can just bring utility. I dont think any concessions are made here, as the hero does exactly what i want (24/7 shelter) and uses whatever utility i put there, which makes it ''great'' as it does exactly what it is supposed to do.

The AI executes it great and shelter is up 24/7. The ER hero is only great if you micro him a lot else he will just misplace tons of spells. That is not a problem since he mostly will have enough energy to do it and AGAIN it boils down to how you play ( if you play tank n spank or micro most of the skills) the ER can be the better choice. Both builds are great but ST can be less micro extensive to get the most out of it.

Iv never had problems with the ER misplacing his spells. When I mentioned "concession", I meant that you can't use direct damage reduction (union) or blocking (displacement) on a hero if you want them to upkeep shelter. An ER can spam Prot Spirit/Spirit Bond (which is used similarly) while still bringing the all too powerful SoA and Aegis. Plus, Infuse is incredibly helpful as the hero AI uses it well (so long as you only place it on one hero of course

).

@Gabs: I agree that you don't need either for most of the game. I'm just saying which is better in the case that you do need OP prots.

Gabs88 · Feb 14, 2012, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

@Gabs: I agree that you don't need either for most of the game. I'm just saying which is better in the case that you do need OP prots.

And I respectfully disagree xD Cause ER Prot needs to be in range and has low range, while ST prot if used right (aka not letting it run rampant with 3 spirits) can stand 2 full aggro bubbles away and still prot perfectly.

And also it's the whole single target prot vs AoE prot thing. In the situations where you actually need some form of prot, it's usually because of strong AoE spikes. A single target prot doesn't help much then

Drk Dervish · Feb 15, 2012, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Long work day didn't have much time messing much with the team. I did took out a Int and ran 1 Shard, 1 panic, 3 e-surge. I done a quick VQ in Jaga Moraine probably not the best place to test but hey it was one of the 8 man area i still need to VQ in Tyrian. Anyway the team handle every well in specially in melee group. I over aggro two group of bison, a Aurochs and go clip from the back from a patrol of Minotaur. I ball up the 2 group bison, ebon sin ball up Aurcoh, and the minotaur ball up one of the spirit. Everything got drop dead before i got my second Splinter Weapon casting.

No issue with those nightmares vaettir as they natural like to group up and dropping like fly my screen was all (ii) and all of them drop 1/4 hp ~ per 1 sec.

The team did got tear open by two groups of Mandragors. Before i can react and flag them half the team was near dead. At the end 6 heroes did die. Definitely have issue handling large condition spike and foe that can pop up next to them. If party got a MM for them to target probably would have this issue.

Thing I notice:
- 3rd e-surge rarely get cast out. It start cast but 50% of the time it always get cancel midway and cast unnatural signet.
- 3rd copy of the mistrust rarely get cast.
- At start of the battle I say 75% of the time Illu hero like to cast either clumsiness or signet of clumsiness before Shared Burden. Which i dont like because those are the time where foe ball up the best.
- Energy still some what of a issue with Illu hero.

After thought I'll agree with Gabs88 it's does more bad then good having this much mes. I think 4 would be the max. The 4th one probably is a hyper so probably not that effective either. Look like 3 mes might be the sweet spot.

With the new WOC now we can get Zei Ri another rit so 3 mes and 2 rit is possible now without merc pick. I guess to make use of merc team now we just left with 3 mes and 3 rit team.